Curse

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 17, 2008, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Grenth has been stated as the god of ice since prophecies and its clearly the closest thing to water (water magic is mostly ice based anyways) so I'm not sure he did inherit any power from Abbadon leaving but is instead just the next best thing.

About when did Abbadon's banishment occur and when did the Grenth to Dhuum transition occur? I have no clue but if it were before the gods gave magic to the people then perhaps water elementalists had always prayed to Grenth?

I find the there always being 6 gods things unlikely due to the fact that Dhuum was clearly still present much like Abbadon after their banishment meaning that if Abbadon were still a god so was Dhuum.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Abaddon's banashment occured at Year 0 - right before the Exodus. Grenth's overpowerment of Dhuum is unknown.

And, unlike Dhuum, Abaddon was never "killed" and replaced until Nightfall. So saying "if Abaddon is still a god after his banishment, then Dhuum must be too" is incorrectly justified.

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 17, 2008, 02:58 AM // 02:58

Does that mean Abbadon is still somewhere in RoT as well then?

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 03:48 AM // 03:48

...

Abaddon has been in the RoT. He is now dead - as far as we know (There are theories going around he will pull a Dhuum or that he will take over Kormir from inside via possession).

I think you mean "is Dhuum in the RoT" - in which case, unknown. Possible.

Charlotte the Harlot · Dec 17, 2008, 05:01 AM // 05:01

I was under the impression that if Abbadon dies in RoT he would simply return to RoT, I read your thread on spirits and whatnot and understand that this most likely isn't the case. Although its interesting that Dhuum is apparently in the RoT or at least "alive" somewhere.

Free Runner · Dec 17, 2008, 11:22 AM // 11:22

Abaddon is a god. Gods are not bound by the same rules as mortals - if they are "killed" they dont return to the Realm of Torment or the Underworld - they either disappear or hang onto life in the shadows. Which one Abaddon did is unclear.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Abaddon may in fact return. If he returns in appearance, than he will be a spirit. If he returns through possessing Kormir, a previously highly discussed topic over on GWO, than he will return in her body.

I personally think Abaddon will return as a spirit.

@ Free Runner: I believe you are taking the hanging onto life in the shadows from Dhuum and Menzies (primarily Dhuum). It may very well be that both of those are in fact spirits as is. That would explain why Menzies - a supposed demi-god, who may or may not be immortal - is still alive if he is in fact not immortal. And why Dhuum is still "alive."

Free Runner · Dec 17, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

@ Free Runner: I believe you are taking the hanging onto life in the shadows from Dhuum and Menzies (primarily Dhuum). It may very well be that both of those are in fact spirits as is. That would explain why Menzies - a supposed demi-god, who may or may not be immortal - is still alive if he is in fact not immortal. And why Dhuum is still "alive."

Actually i was talking about Dhuum since theres no evidence or mention that Menzies has ever been defeated (and his actual status as god or demi god is unclear). As it is we only have two gods who are known to have had their powers taken after being defeated - Abaddon and Dhuum (Not including the god before Abaddon since the details are very obscure).

Dhuum had his powers taken by Grenth after Grenth destroyed him - yet he is still alive and is powerful enough to command his own forces. Abaddon had his powers taken by Kormir after we defeated him - its unknown as to what his status is as we're only given "his will is broken". His forces have been wiped out after Mallyx's attempt at usurping Kormir.

Anyway what i was saying in that post was that gods are not like mortals. If a mortal dies in the pre-Kormir Realm of Torment they would return to the Realm of Torment due to Abaddons taint. However gods are different from simple mortals - the rules dont apply to them as they are the ones who created these realms in the first place.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 17, 2008, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I only mentioned Menzies due to the Ravenheart Gloom description where it hints at Menzies hiding in the shadows in the supposed infinite plain.

And of course, being around for so long, he either must have a very long life span, be equally immortal in terms of age only, or a spirit/ghost idea (which is what Dhuum seems to be right now - a "shade" so to speak, not really living but not dead *no I do not mean undead*).

Sorry if my thoughts are incoherent. My current thinking capacity is about 0 to none.

draxynnic · Dec 18, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

The thought strikes me that if Abaddon 'comes back' by posessing Kormir...

...How would we know that it's Abaddon and not Abaddon's ur-predecessor? What if the domain of knowledge is essentially cursed, so that everyone who picks up the mantle will go mad eventually and all each successor can do is hold on for as long as they can?

This could be extended to other domains as well. Maybe Death has a similar issue, with Grenth simply being at a different stage of the life cycle. Maybe Menzies was the elder brother, and Balthazar stepped in when he went around the bend. Maybe Dwayna and Melandru are the only one who's portfolio's are 'safe' (this would match the theory based on them both having wings in some depictions that they're the original gods while the wingless deities... aren't) and that Lyssa isn't known to have a rival just means it was long enough ago that she'll be next to go around the bend?

As they say, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts entirely.

...But I digress.

Going to the original topic: Abaddon probably didn't have his own professions because he was banished not long before magic was set to it's current state, thus setting the professions in, haha, stone. If he had got his own profession, however, I suspect he would have had the Elementalist and possibly the Dervish - while, as Azazel pointed out, he was the god of Water not of the Elements in general, he was also the god of magic and knowledge. It's possible that, while the Monks and Necromancers and Mesmers went to the gods whose portfolios matched with their powers, the Elementalists, lacking such a direct match, may have paid homage to Abaddon first as the god of magic in general.

Note, however, that any god can have members of any profession serving them, the 'patron' professions are just those that they have a special affinity for. So it would still be possible for a fire specialist elementalist to follow Balthazar and so on - however, those that don't specialise in any given element might have followed Abaddon first as the god of magic. The Dervish tags along for a similar reason - the Dervish has bits of each of the Five in their capabilities, but they are, at heart, a profession that mixes magic with warfare. If Abaddon hadn't been banished, they may have split roughly equally between Balthazar (those that favoured fighting more) and Abaddon (those that favoured magic more), rather than the latter group being split between the various gods in the same way as Elementalists.

All that said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sin City Gamer

Varesh was a Dervish prior to her transformation into a Margonite, and even then other than carrying a spear, she showed no signs of actually being a Paragon. (see the talk page on the link you provided for a breakdown of that argument)

Personally, while all her skills are monster skills, Enemies Must Die does seem like a monster version of Paragoning - except it works directly on the AI of the user's allies rather than giving them a benefit if they perform the specified action as PC paragons do.

Konig Des Todes · Dec 18, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

draxynnic, I suggest you look into this thread over on GWO. I don't think what you stated was even thought of over there and would be a grand addition to the discussion - although it has died down now.

Kerwyn Nasilan · Jan 03, 2009, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Scythe. Discuss.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 03, 2009, 06:04 AM // 06:04

Two words: Concept Art

While worth looking at, not exactly proof of anything. It's as viable as Paragon due to Commander Varesh and Lord Jadoth.

Disciple Of Dwaynah · Jan 03, 2009, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazel The Assassin

What is considered elements are opinionated really, there are 4 "positive" elements, but depending on where you go you can see up to 9 elements. Those being:

Four Core:
Air
Water
Earth
Fire

Additional:
Metal (usually in Asian cultures)
Rock
Ice
Ether (the most universal "5th element")
Time

Just for reference, Time could have been the "5th" or "6th element". Apparently before EoTN became an expansion, they were planning on putting in some kind of profession with time control, which might follow abaddon? Also, one of his skills inflicts daze condition, which is sort of a form of time control in the sense that it slows down cast time, and another that removes stances which would slow down movement and attack speed but that's a bit far fetched. Margonite's carry Abaddon's chosen which prevents health loss for 10 seconds, which could be taken as a pause in time sort of. Don't know if that's relevant at all, considering I don't get into this at all, just throwing it out there.

I know your other statements nearly ruled this out but I think it's still worth stating; A Whisper's Informant says something along the lines of the Margonites arrive with demons and use dark rituals, leaving behind a trail of death. So it is possible that death is considered another element also, but that would mean the same would have to go for life (Dwayna?)

Sorry if this is a bit off the current topic, but I thought it was worth bringing back.

Free Runner · Jan 03, 2009, 03:05 PM // 15:05

I'm not sure why this element thing has been dragged on - someone misunderstood what i was saying - That Dhuum probably never had Water therefore nether did Grenth until Abaddons fall - and thought i was actually saying that Dhuum had Ice, when Grenth defeated him, meaning Grenth had Ice when Abaddon had Water - 5 elements with one of them being done twice over. So i'm not exactly sure why everyones jumped in with all the elements.

As for the Paragon argument with Varesh and Jadoth - i already said somewere in this thread that Paragons are the natural commanders. Commander Varesh speaks for itself - Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician so making him a Paragon is only logical. It does not mean that Abaddon ruled over Paragons.

The same thing goes for Dervishes - i said that Kayhet was a dervish follower of Abaddon and teacher to Varesh who was also a Dervish. I also brought up the art on the prerelease cd which Kerwyn Nasilan posted. But in the end none of that means he ruled over Dervishes.

As was mentioned by someone in this thread, if we looked closly we could draw lines to every profession.

Konig Des Todes · Jan 03, 2009, 05:53 PM // 17:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disciple Of Dwaynah

Just for reference, Time could have been the "5th" or "6th element". Apparently before EoTN became an expansion, they were planning on putting in some kind of profession with time control, which might follow abaddon? Also, one of his skills inflicts daze condition, which is sort of a form of time control in the sense that it slows down cast time, and another that removes stances which would slow down movement and attack speed but that's a bit far fetched. Margonite's carry Abaddon's chosen which prevents health loss for 10 seconds, which could be taken as a pause in time sort of. Don't know if that's relevant at all, considering I don't get into this at all, just throwing it out there.

1. Chronomancer. 2. There is a concept art labeled "new god" (or was it "time god"), I think they were planning on putting in a 11th god (6 true gods, 3 fallen "gods", Great Dwarf are the first 10). 3. Daze is a condition, like a knock to the head, not time control. If I tossed a rock at your head, you would be dazed. (I'm talking about in real life here).

Quote:

I know your other statements nearly ruled this out but I think it's still worth stating; A Whisper's Informant says something along the lines of the Margonites arrive with demons and use dark rituals, leaving behind a trail of death. So it is possible that death is considered another element also, but that would mean the same would have to go for life (Dwayna?)

Life and Death are parts of the 'nature of life' if you will. Birth, Life, Death, Rebirth (no not the skill - I mean "birth into the afterlife") go under that. In a way, there are two parts of "nature." Nature of the World (elements) and Nature of Life (what I just mentioned).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Free Runner

I'm not sure why this element thing has been dragged on - someone misunderstood what i was saying - That Dhuum probably never had Water therefore nether did Grenth until Abaddons fall - and thought i was actually saying that Dhuum had Ice, when Grenth defeated him, meaning Grenth had Ice when Abaddon had Water - 5 elements with one of them being done twice over. So i'm not exactly sure why everyones jumped in with all the elements.

It came up due to that misunderstanding, and me pointing out how there are more elements than the simple 4 elements we see in the 6 gods. Why it has been dragged on, however, is probably due to people wanting to connect as much as possible in order to "make sense" and to not have any loose turns (like why people want to know Balthazar and Menzies' parents, and how you said if we knew that, people would want to know their parents, and so on and so on) - which turns up to be a never ending quest which leads to chaos in organization.

Quote:

As for the Paragon argument with Varesh and Jadoth - i already said somewere in this thread that Paragons are the natural commanders. Commander Varesh speaks for itself - Jadoth was Abaddons best tactician so making him a Paragon is only logical. It does not mean that Abaddon ruled over Paragons.

The same thing goes for Dervishes - i said that Kayhet was a dervish follower of Abaddon and teacher to Varesh who was also a Dervish. I also brought up the art on the prerelease cd which Kerwyn Nasilan posted. But in the end none of that means he ruled over Dervishes.

As was mentioned by someone in this thread, if we looked closly we could draw lines to every profession.

That is what I meant by "It's as viable as Paragon due to Commander Varesh and Lord Jadoth." It's not very viable at all, just like Paragon.

Nathaniel (Was 'ere) · Jan 17, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Dervish. Maybe when Abbadon fell the Dervishes began to link themselves to the Five True Gods - (assuming Grenth took over before Abbadon fell) - under the impression that if any of the other Gods became corrupt then they could dis-associate themselves with that God.
Jadoth could simply have been a Paragon beforehand and chosen to keep his profession after becoming a Margonite, the fact he was a Paragon proves nothing. The same with Commander Varesh.
If they had brought out Chronomancer then they may have associated that profession with Menzies - the usual Melee vs Magic thing, considering, before Grenth, Dhuum was the patron God of Water Elementalists.
I think you should consider Holy, Chaos, Dark damage etc. There's little info on Menzies and the Great Dwarf may have had a profession at one point? Maybe the secrets of that profession were simply lost or shunned etc. Maybe the Tome of Rubicon isn't full and would have provided the Dwarves with that sort of information (Maybe making our fight against the Destroyers much easier as we wouldn't have had to recruit the Asura, Norn and the Ebon Vanguard if we had an uber Dwarf profession. =P

Spike Stritter · Jan 18, 2009, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Thene

Also, that excerpt from Abbadon's Scripture says he gifted Jadoth with magic, and that magic allowed Jadoth to cause storms and sink ships at sea.
For that, my vote goes to Water Eles.
That of course raises the question as to why Jadoth is a Paragon now...

I heard that in Guild Wars there is this thing called second profession.

P/E

draxynnic · Jan 18, 2009, 09:24 AM // 09:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel (Was 'ere)

If they had brought out Chronomancer then they may have associated that profession with Menzies - the usual Melee vs Magic thing, considering, before Grenth, Dhuum was the patron God of Water Elementalists.

Actually, Abaddon had dominion over the oceans, so it's more likely that he would have been the former patron of Water Elementalists - and remember that there was only a short time between the granting of magic to mortals and Abaddon's fall. Grenth became the patron of Water Elementalists after Abaddon's fall due to the association of the cold of death with the cold of life.

Dhuum, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have any association with water whatsoever. From memory, for instance, none of his servants use water magic at all - his Elementalists, such as Terrorwebs and Wrathful Storms, are predominantly fire-users.

Nathaniel (Was 'ere) · Jan 18, 2009, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Ah, OK, I mis-read the page. I thought that Grenth gained all of his powers from Dhuum.